Trending towards greatness: Why is retail surging in 2024?
Guest: Scott Auster
Topics: Supply and demand, lease concessions, delivery conditions, prohibited use clauses
In this weeks episode, Chris sits down with Scott Auster, Executive Vice President and Head of Leasing at Urban Edge Properties. They discuss the tailwinds that have allowed the retail sector to thrive in 2024, and how they have contributed to a shifting attitude towards store formats and lease clauses.
What You’ll Learn
- Why is retail surging in 2024?
- How have negotiations over lease concessions shifted recently?
- What types of store delivery conditions have been increasing recently?
- Why are stores going to have “a little more character” in the near future?
- Which lease terms have shifted in favor of property owners since COVID?
- How to navigate technical definitions in exclusive use lease clauses?
About Retail Retold
The Retail Retold Podcast highlights community retailer stories from across the country and gives a behind-the-scenes perspective from business leaders in both retail and real estate industries. The show’s episodes contain valuable insights that help solve the needs of entrepreneurs and real estate pros. Join host Chris Ressa and new guests weekly for amazing insights and thought-provoking stories.
Transcript:
This is Retail Retold, the story of how that store ended up in your neighborhood. I’m your host, Chris Ressa. And I invite you to join my conversation with some of the retail industry’s biggest influencers. This podcast is brought to you by DLC Management.
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Chris Ressa 00:03
Welcome to retail retold everyone. Today I’m joined by Scott Auster. I’m excited for Scott to be here. He’s a good friend. And Scott is the Executive Vice President and Head of Leasing at Urban Edge. Welcome to the show, Scott.
Scott Auster 00:17
Chris, thank you for having me. I feel like we’ve been dancing around doing this for quite a while now. So I’m glad that we got it on the calendar and we’re making it happen.
Chris Ressa 00:26
Me too. So Scott, for those who don’t know you, why don’t you tell a little bit about who you are and what you do?
00:32
Well, as you just mentioned, I work at Urban Edge properties, I’m the head of leasing. We are a publicly traded real estate investment trust traded on the New York Stock Exchange. We have, I believe it’s 76 properties now, I should know that for sure, but we’ve been acquiring a few recently. So I get lost on what the actual count is. But it’s about 76 properties, about 17 million square feet, primarily located in what’s called the Acela corridor. So everything from Boston down to Washington DC but with a high concentration in the metro New York area. So northern Jersey, Long Island, the outer boroughs, Westchester, Fairfield County, that area.
Chris Ressa 01:22
And what type of properties are these? I know they’re retail but what type of retail properties?
01:27
These are predominantly open-air strip centers. And within strip centers, we run the gamut, right? We have power centers that are anchored by Home Depot, Target, Costco, BJs, Lowe’s, we also have a bunch of grocery-anchored strip centers, we have centers that some would describe as more like lifestyle, open-air type shopping centers, and then we happen to have two large regional malls located in Puerto Rico.
Chris Ressa 02:02
That’s not in the Acela corridor, Puerto Rico
02:04
Not in the Acela corridor, no it’s a little bit of an outlier for us, but an area of our portfolio that’s performed very well, recently, we’re really proud of those assets.
Chris Ressa 02:14
Excellent. So I think you have an interesting lens to retail and real estate and the intersection of those two. If you were to sum up, what is your take of the overall retail real estate market right now?
02:30
I think it’s very good. I’ll say specifically why I think it’s very good. I wouldn’t say it’s great, but it’s trending towards great. I think we have a lot more tailwinds than we have headwinds in our business. When I say our business, it’s yours and mine we’re both in the open-air strip retail business. By and large, I think it’s different than some other segments of our sector. I think our asset class in particular, is performing really well. I think one of the principal reasons is there’s really a lack of any new supply, there has been a lack of any new supply nationwide, for the better part of I don’t know, 15 years at this point, there hasn’t been a lot of new shopping center product, open- air shopping center product that’s been developed. And if you look at the headwinds that our industry has faced over the last decade, first with, you know, the internet and the rise of online shopping, and what people thought that that would do to, you know, traditional brick and mortar and shopping center retail, and certainly the impacts of COVID and the implications of that to our industry. I mean with those two events and everything leading up to them and past them. There just hasn’t been a lot of new construction, there hasn’t been a lot of demand or interest in building new product. But on the other side of that, obviously the dynamics of our business, and particularly our tenants have begun to perform really well. They’ve recognized the value of maintaining a very strong fleet of stores. And on top of that they’ve come with come up with ways to leverage that store to service other segments of their business. I mean, these are all things that you’ve talked about on your podcast, but when you talk about where we see the market I think it’s super relevant, right? I mean, the whole ship from store, buy online pick up in store, all of those things have had a positive impact on our business. So when you layer that in with a lack of supply, you know, we’re in a pretty good place right now, our shopping centers are very well occupied. They’re in very sought after locations with high barriers to entry. And we have a lot of tenants out there that are still seeking to expand. So the dynamics there are very good. The principal headwind that I would say that we’re facing is we’re still dealing with very high construction costs. And that has an impact on both our business and the business of our tenants when it comes to building out new stores, so it’s not a perfect environment. But there’s a lot more good than bad out there right now for sure with our business.
Chris Ressa 05:12
So let’s go back to the first part of the demand equation. So I agree there’s a lot of demand for space driven by all these tailwinds.
Chris Ressa 05:27
But it’s easy Scott to just let me take back, not easy but it’s easier to just lease a space. It’s different to have growth and lease a space and increase rents and have revenue growth, just like any other industry wants revenue growth, right, whether you’re Google, Pepsi, everyone needs growth, right. That’s the name of the game. And are you seeing the tailwinds of this in this well-occupied environment start to help in produce revenue growth?
Scott Auster 06:01
I think we’re starting to see that, yes. And that’s across, you know, all areas of the transaction, right. Certainly rent growth is, is important and principally important to us. But you know, the rest of the industry, but it’s also the rest of the deal, the concessions that we have to provide to induce tenants to take spaces in our center. I mean, I think there are still tenants out there that want certain conditions delivered for their space, or are asking for a certain amount of allowance towards their construction. That hasn’t changed. But I do think there’s more opportunity to negotiate those provisions than there necessarily was before because of the supply-demand dynamic that we’re talking about. So I’d say from a landlord’s perspective, terms are improving, but we certainly got to be mindful of the tenants business and what they need to do in order to be successful. I mean, they’re facing some of the same headwinds that we are. So coming up with creative ways to meet their needs, but try to improve upon the business terms, as we talked about that, you know, we would like to get for new leases going forward, is the art of what we’re trying to do, at least in the leasing department at Urban Edge right now. But it’s definitely a better environment than it’s been.
Chris Ressa 07:26
What a great point that I don’t think we talk about enough in the industry. But it’s talked about a ton in multifamily and office, which is the concessions. We don’t even like really, that word doesn’t really come up a lot concessions. And I don’t know why maybe it’s just because some of these things are just over from 2010 are just part of deals anymore. And it’s not even a concession. It’s just assumed, I don’t know. But it’s a word that multifamily and office you hear all the time, right? Like how many months free does the new tenant get when they rent an apartment, and, you know, all these things that, you know, no security deposit and all these concessions that might have to be given. And the truth of the matter is that our leases are pretty complicated documents that cover a wide range of things. And there’s a lot of things that can be done to improve the economic value of a lease outside of rent, even though rent is super important. So I think it’s a great point that you bring up that we don’t talk about enough. What are some of those things in a lease that concessions that you’re starting to see move potentially?
Scott Auster 08:42
I mean, well, the easiest one is the allowance. And that varies from tenant to tenant, there are tenants that don’t seek any allowance. There are others that it’s a big part of their business model, and it’s incorporated into their, their deal underwriting and you know, they, they, they certainly are still expecting or wanting at the very least, that you’re going to contribute some amount in capital towards the construction of their store. And that’s a very easy thing to sort of see the change in right. It’s one number one day and maybe next year, that number is different. Maybe it’s up maybe it’s down depending on what’s going on in the market or what’s going on at a particular center. You know, the concessions vary depending on the quality of the real estate, I would say. And that’s no different than any other sector I would expect. Where it gets a little bit more complicated is, you know, how we’re delivering these spaces to tenants, right. The level of work that we’re providing, and there are still you know, especially in the larger size tenant category, the anchors, tenants that want you to basically build their store for them, you know, give them what’s called the turnkey as we know, right? Build the store to their specifications, where they can just come in and, you know, bring their fixtures in, their inventory, and be open inside of 60 days, and we’ve done some of those over here at Urban Edge, but, you know, what we’re seeing now is, you know, we’re negotiating different types of delivery conditions between just an as is deal and, and a turnkey, you know, we’re doing warm dark shells, or vanilla shells, or some variation of that. And there’s a lot more of that negotiation going on between the parties today than there was before. And when I say it’s complicated, it’s really depends on what parts of it you’re negotiating have the most impact. I mean, there’s the cost of things that you need to do in a particular work letter and then there’s the lead time and you know, the supply chain issues related to some of those work items and the materials that you need for them. So there’s a lot of back and forth going on between us and the tenants trying to negotiate both the fairest delivery condition that’s going to work for both of us, but also be mindful of an overall construction schedule with the interest of us delivering the space as soon as we possibly can, and the tenant opening up their business as soon as they possibly can, once they take possession of the space.
Chris Ressa 11:12
What a very insightful, what I would say is, at some point, and this is what I’ve been saying
Scott Auster 11:20
I mean flattery will get you everywhere, Chris I appreciate you saying that. But I know that these are all things that you probably know already.
Chris Ressa 11:25
Well, what I keep saying is open-air retail spaces are are going to hit a point where stores are going to have a little more character. And what that means is, we’re going to leave some things how they are, because the cost to change them in a space is just too much. And for those who don’t know what has happened over time, is many tenants, occupiers of space
Chris Ressa 12:01
Who have multiple locations, have a plan of what a space should look like no matter what center and what market they’re in. And if they can get that to look the same everywhere, their back of house efficiencies, supply chain, logistics, store operations, front of house things are a lot easier. So it makes a lot of sense for them, to try to turn every space to look pretty much the same.
Chris Ressa 12:28
However, the cost of doing that has gotten extreme. You couple that with the what people are dubbing the localization of stores really getting in with the community and getting a local feel, I believe, you’re going to start to see some character brought back into some stores. Because you know what, let’s get a little local, let’s not spend the money to just move, all we’re doing is moving the bathrooms from the front to the back of the store. Let’s leave them, because that’s 100 grand to move them. Yep. And I think that’ll be another catalyst. If stores get more character, to the velocity of leasing deals.
Scott Auster 13:15
I think that’s a great point around, you know, what you talked about with the existing conditions and how we can integrate them into a new store, which both saves money and time and getting that space built and delivered. But doing it in a way that the retailer or the national retailer that to your point really wants a consistency across the chain, because that’s part of their value proposition is the customer’s familiar with where who they are no matter where they go, doing that in a way where we can get more creative with the existing buildings both on the interior and the exterior. That speaks exactly to what I was talking about with us working with the tenants construction department and trying to get more creative in how we’re delivering these things. That’s a big part of it, to the extent that they could be a little bit more flexible in certain conditions that they’re willing to accept because they might fall outside of a prototype. But they can make them work within the environment in that particular location and still have the brands appeal that they’re looking for. That makes a big difference. And those are the types of tenants that we’re we’re super interested in, in working with. It’s a win-win at the end of the day.
Chris Ressa 14:35
For sure. I think one of the things for the listener is if you’re thinking like it,
Chris Ressa 14:42
it is at your house, which is the following which is you go to the store and you look at tile to buy, and there’s a range of tile. It could be from $5 and foot to $50 a foot, and you choose the $20 foot tile and as the budget is getting built, to save money, you decide to go from the $20 tile to the $10 tile. That’s what I would call Value Engineering. The challenge is, in the open air space, retailers have gotten super efficient on their buy. And the products they’re using. There’s very little room to value engineer in that regard. On the high end of high-end retail, they do this a lot. The Louis Vuitton’s and Gucci’s, it’s a way they make budgets because they start with $100, tile, you’ve all been a Tiffany store, and then they move down. But in some of our retailers, they’ve already done a great job of getting a great product at a reasonable price. Whether it’s TJ Maxx or Five Below, there’s no more room to discount the tile or the lighting, the only place to move is on the scope of work, which is what are we actually doing? And that place typically means to save, can we actually keep some of the existing conditions in place?
Scott Auster 16:02
Yep. And for a time, it really wasn’t much of a conversation I think that the tenants, it didn’t matter if they could make it work or not, they still wanted it to work their way or be done their way. And we were in a position where we had to get some space filled and wanted to grow our occupancy. So we want to go along with those things. You know, we still want to work with our tenants in a way that works for them too, but I think the dynamics have shifted as such where those conversations are a lot meatier and are resulting in a lot more, you know, creative compromise than there was before for sure.
Chris Ressa 16:47
So we just, we spent a lot of time on the deal. I want to move to just what I’ll call and maybe it’ll lead us back to the deal, some just general operating procedure. And I think it’s interesting from, and it’s been talked about ad nauseam, but quite candidly, I get a different answer from everybody. So pre-pandemic, post-pandemic? How has what you do changed? Or has it changed at all? And what are some of the biggest changes you’ve seen?
Scott Auster 17:22
I don’t know if there’s been a substantial change in in how we go about our business, or you know, how we’ve been doing business pre COVID to post COVID? Probably with a little bit more thought I might come up with some things that are incremental changes, but I don’t think there’s been any major change in how we do things. I do think that the biggest change has been, the industry that we’re operating in, and you know, where we are. From a supply and demand standpoint, I mean, going it’s going back to the deal a little bit.
Scott Auster 18:13
You’re putting me on the spot here a little bit because I know there’s a better answer than this but I can’t come up with it right now.
Chris Ressa 18:17
There might, no there might not be Scott, there might not be I think that that could be the point, right? Like, one of the things that was told to me in March of 2020, is that like every retail store was going to go away forever. And that didn’t happen. Right. So I think something’s changed. And some I’m on if I were to answer, there’s a lot, from we’re hybrid at DLC, I spend a lot more time on video conf. I don’t know if I did any video conference calls in 2019. Today, I do a million still to this day. And those are some of the things. I think it does lead me to the deal a little bit, which is
Chris Ressa 18:59
you’re mentioning some of the terms changing in the deals. Are there any non-monetary things that are like, impactful that you’re fighting on today that you didn’t fight on before? That, I don’t want to use the word fight negotiating?
Scott Auster 19:14
Oh, um I mean, I think that the two biggest ones are probably the exclusive and prohibited uses section and then to a lesser extent, co-tenancy. I mean those are both things that are in a lot of deals that we have here. But you know, we certainly negotiate very hard to try to have the most fair outcome from a landlord perspective, from an owner perspective. And of the two, I think the exclusive we’re probably spending more time on now than we ever have. And it’s not because we’re against protecting a tenant from you know, obvious and direct competition. We understand that if they’re coming to our shopping center, and we’re investing in them and they’re investing thing in our location, that if there’s some very specific competition, that is going to hurt their business, it’s not unreasonable for us to agree that we’re not going to lease to those types of uses in the shopping center while they’re there. But where it gets a little bit murky is, you know, where the exclusive stretches into areas that aren’t necessarily direct competition, but might have some element of potential competition. And then beyond that, sort of, prohibits us or impacts our ability to, to lease to a use or a concept that we don’t even know exists today and might exist in the future. And isn’t really competition with that tenant, but the way their exclusive is written, it would prohibit that use. So we try to, to really keep any exclusive that we’re going to agree to very narrow and very specific, so that it keeps out the intended competition, but gives us the flexibility to be able to lease to any variety of tenants that really isn’t a competition with that without running afoul of an exclusive that’s just not clear or too general in some places and subject to interpretation. That’s probably the one that we spend the most time working on that’s non monetary. And I’ll tell you just thinking about post COVID, and what the biggest impact has been, you know, what it really did was, it accelerated a lot of the change that was coming to our business into a very short timeframe. So, tenants that probably would have gone out of business over five years went out of business in six months, right. And probably a lot of new shopping centers that had been planned ended up not getting built and that shrunk the supply of inventory available.It’s really all contributed to the dynamic that we have here today. But it was something that happened a lot quicker than it otherwise would have happened. And that’s for better or worse, right? I mean, maybe with the passage of time and changes in the economy or in consumer sentiment and tastes, a business that was gonna go out of business would have been okay, or might have been able to change and become something else and do better. I mean, COVID took away the ability to do that there were a lot of companies that were going to be around for a little while longer, maybe not for the far future, but would have been around for a little longer that ended up going out of business a lot sooner. Retail companies, retailers I’m talking about. So, you know, that had a real impact on our business in the way that we did business for a little while. But I think the outcropping of that is a much is a much leaner and healthier business than it otherwise would have been at this point probably.
Chris Ressa 22:55
So, great answer, I’m gonna bring you back. Because actually, we don’t spend a lot of time on this show on exclusives. So we’re going to dig into that for a moment. And we’ll we’ll probably wrap it up in in around there. What I like to say is the exclusives should protect the tenant, but it shouldn’t punish the landlord. And that’s how I like to characterize it. Right, we should be able to protect you without being punished in protecting you. And so what does that mean? I think this is such an interesting topic. One. If you take the enclosed mall, you use that it might not be unreasonable. But if you take the enclosed mall, many of those retailers won’t go into a mall unless all their competition is there. They all want to be together. But if you take the roof off the property, and it’s an open-air now, there’s this we don’t want them there. What gives? Why is that?
Scott Auster 24:02
Well that’s the difference, right? Well, I’ll give you another example. You go to any, you know, high street in any major city, around the country, and on the street, there are four-five-six-seven-eight sneaker stores. And you know, they’re different buildings, different owners, so there’s nothing prohibiting them from opening next to each other. But they all know the other ones are there. And that’s where they choose to go. That’s where they want to be. They all want to be around each other. So the cliche of a rising tide lifts all boats. It does apply there and it does apply it would seem in the regional mall space to your point. Not as much in the strip category for sure.
Chris Ressa 24:44
Not as much, and you mentioned a piece where you’re, you’re trying to narrow what that exclusive is to protect the tenant, but not punish you is essentially what you’re trying to do. This is, for those who don’t know, super tricky, I actually, I go to, I’ve gone to my legal team before and asked them, I want you guys to answer this. And if you can’t answer this, then we’re going to create it as a starting point. What is the difference between off-price and discount? What is it? What is the difference between off-price, discount, and outlet? And because there’s some leases that will prohibit another off-price, there’s some leases that will prohibit a discounter, there’s some leases that will prohibit an outlet. And we’ve started to get some blend, but there are some distinctions between the categories. And I, we’ve got definitions and we try to impart them being like, okay, you’re a discounter. This is what a discounter means. You’re an outlet, this is what an outlet means. You’re an off-price retailer, this is what off-price means. And that’s just one example in the apparel space. But this starts to permeate through everywhere, the one that’s come up significantly here. And I’ll ask you, Scott, I’m gonna you just asked me if I’m gonna, if I put you on the spot, I’m gonna put you on the spot right now. Is Starbucks a restaurant?
Scott Auster 26:26
No.
Chris Ressa 26:27
Okay. I don’t think so. I don’t think so either. I don’t think Starbucks is a restaurant. But right. It depends on what the definition of a restaurant, it actually depends on what the lease defines a restaurant as. And this is for those out there. This is what Scott and I deal with all the time, like, what is a restaurant? And, you know, we’re sitting here cleaning up a lot of old school documents and trying to create the future of what a restaurant definition is.
Scott Auster 26:59
Yep. But I’ll say this, Chris, like, and this is my plug for the industry. If anybody’s listening, that’s considering whether if it’s a business that they want to get into this stuff. Maybe it sounds mundane, and maybe it sounds even a little bit complicated. But it’s fun, to try to figure all these things out. And most times our counterparts, our counterparties, the retailer’s, they’re just trying to figure it out, too. And they’re having fun with it also, and they see the good ones, the ones that you and I and others that do what we do have developed a really strong relationship over time. They understand our concerns as much as we understand their concerns. And it’s not a fight, it’s not an argument, but they are doing their best to protect their brands and their business. In the same way, we are doing our best to protect the value of our real estate, and our ability to make these things these shopping centers, the best retail environments that we possibly can. And when you have willing counterparties that love the business like you do and appreciate it like you do, you might not get to the exact solution that you like, everybody’s got to give a little bit, but how you get there and the conversations that we have, and the strategies and the scenarios that we game out together. That’s the fun part. You’re always thinking about the next thing. Not about what today is, but what’s going to happen tomorrow that you got to make sure you’re accounting for in this document because this document that you’re signing many times as a ten, fifteen, twenty plus year document. So we really have to be thinking not just about what it means today, but what it could do in the future.
Scott Auster 28:29
What a great point. That that should be the ending point. But I have another fun one for you of of these definitions.
Scott Auster 28:55
We can keep going like this all day.
Chris Ressa 28:58
These definitions. Here’s one, what is the difference, for everyone out there, between quick service restaurant, fast food restaurant, and fast casual restaurant.
Scott Auster 29:10
I was hoping you could tell me. That’s one of those things when you get calls from me at 7:30 in the morning, those are the questions that I’m asking you.
Chris Ressa 29:21
I’ll go and I’ll define it a bit just for what it’s kinda coming out. I think fast food has been dubbed today to have a drive thru. Essentially, if you have a drive thru, you’re falling in fast food category.
Scott Auster 29:38
Okay I’m trying to think if there’s any fast food guys that don’t have drive-thru’s. I’m sure you’ve given this some thought I’m there.
Chris Ressa 29:46
They’re certainly I would, I would, I would say if they don’t, I think they level up and they end up in the quick serve category, which is the Chipotle when they don’t have the Chipotlane. Which is the Qdoba, which is that. And then this fast casual is a tough one so I’m reaching. But the fast casual, I think, was really intended for
Chris Ressa 30:18
the Panera’s is of the world where, when they when you would go up, you would order you would sit down, whereas Chipotle, you’re moving through, and then you sit down, that’s quick serve, which is fast casual is Panera is quick, but it’s a casual dining experience. And then you move up to full serve. That’s kind of loosely how I’ve come to grips with it. It is not necessarily accurate. But that’s how I’ve kinda come to grips with it
Scott Auster 30:46
It’s a breakdown in a few different ways that I hadn’t considered yet. So, you know, like a lot of your podcast, I’m learning something on this one, too. I mean, the difference between the throughput of how you actually receive your food, being different definitions of types of restaurants is one I hadn’t thought about. So that’s that’s how I mean I’m, I’m a little bit more like traditional when it comes to it’s either you’re getting your food from the counter, or the waitress waiter, you know, like, and that’s, and that’s the difference. But you’re right, it’s become a lot more complicated than that. And the reason you’re asking that question in the first place, is because leases have definitions around those different descriptions that impact what types of other stores or restaurants you can put in a center. So I lease and it says that we can’t have another fast casual or quick service, or what have you type use. That’s when we’re sitting there trying to figure out alright, what does that mean? Now, let’s describe that a little bit more.
Chris Ressa 31:49
Yeah, I went down the hall. And I asked one of our attorneys, I said, Someone tell me the difference between a quick serve and a fast casual restaurant go. And, you know, it’s just like, and I was like, Is this one a quick serve or fast casual? And undoubtedly, they’re like both. And I’m like, no, can’t be both. that ruins it for me. It can’t be both it’s gotta be one.
Scott Auster 32:10
Yeah, and you ask five people, they’re gonna give you five different answers. So yes, right. But again, look at us. We’re laughing. We’re having fun with it. Like that’s like, this is all. You know, what gives me a rise and gets me excited about the business is trying to figure out answers to very complicated questions, even if it is just about what a quick service restaurant is. Yeah.
Chris Ressa 32:38
Well Scott, we covered a lot today. And we covered some topics that we never talked about on the show. So I really appreciate the time. If someone’s out there, and they want to reach out to Scott Auster, how do they find you?
Scott Auster 32:50
Best place is to probably send me an email at sauster@uedge.com. And, you know, plug for Urban Edge. We’re going to be upgrading our website in the next couple of months. So I’ll direct you to go check that out. Probably after June, I would say. And you could always find me there too.
Chris Ressa 33:11
We’ll post the URL in the show notes.
Scott Auster 33:15
Yeah that’d be great. Yeah, it’s pretty it’s gonna go to the old one now, but pretty soon that’s going to be totally upgraded.
Chris Ressa 33:22
Excellent. Well, listen, Scott, this has been great. I really appreciate the time. Like I said, it was just a conversation. And I think that’s what we had a lot of things going on in the industry today. So thanks for coming on.
Scott Auster 33:34
It’s always great talking to you, Chris. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Chris Ressa 33:37
You too.
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